Curse

Notorious Bob · Dec 23, 2010, 09:12 AM // 09:12

So how did Keiran achieve the mysterious class change from Ranger to Paragon and why the hell does he still have his bow and not some funky new Spear?

Piippo · Dec 23, 2010, 09:16 AM // 09:16

For the actual profession change, I can't really say anything.

But the bow. It's got the same skin as the Rotscale bow, so it's propable that Keiran killed Rotscale on his treck in the jungle (it's possible in one of the mini-missions) and kept the bow for bragging rights. Also, he propably haven't got a chance to obtain a spear yet.

stanzhao · Dec 23, 2010, 09:29 AM // 09:29

the profession change i think is just based purely on keiran leraning how to become a leader, and the paragons profession attribute

Elmindreda Farshaw · Dec 23, 2010, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Not that mysterious, as you progressed through HotN he learned the Paragon skills "Find Their Weakness!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!". He still wields a bow because that is what he had equipped while making the change.

gremlin · Dec 23, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Personal opinion its all part of leading us to GW2

Many of the past game changes and esp Nightfall to EYE have been to test ideas for GW2.

I suspect if some form of hero occurs in a gw2 expansion being able choose/change the primary profession will be part of it.

Another Felldspar · Dec 23, 2010, 03:10 PM // 15:10

I hate it. It's like they tossed out one of the most basic of the rules by allowing Keiran to change primary professions. I disagree with most of the decisions that Stumme has made since taking over, but I can at least understand them and see the reasoning -- disagreement isn't necessarily a bad thing. But with this it seems he's completely gone against the Guild Wars universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanzhao

the profession change i think is just based purely on keiran leraning how to become a leader, and the paragons profession attribute

Langmar wasn't a paragon, but she was a leader. Evennia wasn't a paragon, Rurik wasn't a paragon, Greywind isn't a paragon, Warmaster Grast isn't a paragon... Leadership ability isn't decided by profession. And if it's just that now he is such a grand leader then why is he joining a wandering adventurer's party as a peon instead of starting his own party?

Making Keiran a paragon when no one else has ever been able to learn to change their primary profession is just wrong. He's not even the leader of the Vanguard, or the founder of Ebon Hawk, he's just her husband. Not the leader. And definitely NOT a paragon.

C'mon Stumme one of the strongest points of Guild Wars is the lore/story telling. Stop mucking it up!

*wanders away muttering about Balthazar and Melandru snowball fights*

Yugs · Dec 23, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Felldspar

Making Keiran a paragon when no one else has ever been able to learn to change their primary profession is just wrong.

I'm not trying to be rude but Keiran is not the first person to change their primary profession in guild wars. Gwen in Pre-Searing was a Monk and was then changed to a mesmer in the BMP and EotN.

I do agree that Lore wise making these kind of changes to primaries is stretching things, but it is a fantasy game after all.

Another Felldspar · Dec 23, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yugs

Gwen in Pre-Searing was a Monk and was then changed to a mesmer in the BMP and EotN.

Not true. Gwen offered healing through playing a flute, but she wasn't a monk. Lots of professions have some type of healing available to them, but as a child Gwen had no profession.

Keiran did have a profession though; it was Ranger. And if you go into SD he's still a ranger. And it isn't that changing professions has simply not been done before, it's something that is specifically verboten within the GW Universe. If Keiran can do it, why can't Koss? Why can't I? I've changed, I've matured, I've grown into myself, I've come to understand the intrinsic connection between beauty and illusion, and I've protected the altar of Lyss -- I should become a mesmer.

gremlin · Dec 23, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

The only rules for the Ai allies and possible heroes is there are no rules or at least they do not follow the rules we do.

In the bonus mission pack gwen and the others have skills that do not exist so far as player characters are concerned.

I don't really care when it happens as long as there is a halfway decent in game reason for it.
Presumably something happened to Kieren that made him go from ranger/Paragon to Paragon/Ranger.

Its a one off hopefully.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 24, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Okay folks, a few things:

1) This is the lore forum. Not the mechanics forum. Primary professions being unchangable is a mechanic thing, it's not unique to Keiran either.
2) I don't want to see "to make him useless" or what-have-you posts. They are not contributing.
3) Here's John Stumme's reasoning for making Keiran a paragon:

Quote:

Keiran became a Paragon because they are the profession iconic with leadership in Guild Wars, and it was a very tangible way to show his growth. Text itself can only go so far - actually, I'm kind of surprised that some people still had as much vitriol toward Gwen that they did, in my head, the voice that I heard for her while writing was someone that was starting to let her guard down, but was not immediately going to be a different person. The lack of actual voice, or a better means to convey inflection can really hurt in that regard - but showing a character actually changing is a very visceral way to back up the story. His different character models were also a part of that. It was an interesting experiment, and I think by and large it was a success. Within our room, we were kind of marveling at the sudden influx of "Keiran is pro!" and similar comments, especially considering his previous (general) standing with the community.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...log_Suggestion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Felldspar

I hate it. It's like they tossed out one of the most basic of the rules by allowing Keiran to change primary professions.

...

Making Keiran a paragon when no one else has ever been able to learn to change their primary profession is just wrong.

Keiran's not the only NPC with a change in primary professions:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magi_Malaquire
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alari_Doubleblade
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Carlotta
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Afflicted#Notes (some afflicted bosses are in fact afflicted forms of Shing Jea student/teachers and almost all of them have had a change in the primary profession).

Also, the inability to change primary, as I said above, is a mechanic. Not lore. Even Alessia hinted at being able to become a warrior:

Quote:

People have told me that I would have made a better Warrior than a Monk, so I've come here seeking not to soothe the hurts, but cause them!

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_N...ament#Dialogue

Although a joke on her AI, this sounds like she was deciding whether to become a warrior - don heavier armor and so forth - or continue to be a monk. Based on WiK dialogue, she stayed a monk. But it implies that it is possible.

reaper with no name · Dec 24, 2010, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Anyone remember that repeatable quest in Drazach Thicket where you go recruit people for the Kurzick army?

They each express a desire to become a certain class once they join the army, yet when you see them, they are all monks. This also implies that it is possible (lore-wise) to change primary classes.

yitjuan · Dec 25, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

I dunno about mechanics, but I think lorewise it reflects Keiran's desire to change from a loner into a respected leader. He mixed with the Norn and hunted with them and probably learnt a lot of Leadership skills from them (Olaf is a Paragon).

There are too many real life examples of people graduating in a specific field and taking on a different job until 5-10 years later they end up working in a totally different industry. Why can't Guild Wars reflect that? I think it's a great idea, break free from the restrictive mold that pigeonholed every MMO.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 25, 2010, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Olaf is a warrior. Egil is the Paragon. Plus, he's known among the norn as a great hunter, doubt that's very leader-ish. More loner-ish to me.

Notorious Bob · Dec 26, 2010, 09:28 AM // 09:28

The change of profession is definitely a 'lore breaker' as far as the game universe is concerned. Why should NPCs exhibit behaviour and development that is different or prohibited for player characters?

If the class/sub-class dual profession thing was setup correctly in GW then this would have been less of an issue - Kieran taking Paragon as a sub-class wouldve been a better course.

But having taken Paragon what the hell is going on with him having a bow as his main weapon? "Oh look, I just unlocked all these funky new Paragon Spear skills and I don't have a toothpick to use them with" ??????

That's just plain barmy!

What's he going to use in combat - harsh language?

Then again, in the current meta, perhaps he's twigged that spirit spam can be run by any profession

Odd to say the least!

Konig Des Todes · Dec 26, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

It's not a lore breaker because PCs are limited through mechanics. Mechanics are the lore breaker, not NPCs doing things PCs cannot. If it were how you say, then there should be no way for the charr to invade ascalon because PCs cannot go directly from the charr homelands to Ascalon.

The bow is to help show his transition from a ranger to a paragon.

Notorious Bob · Dec 26, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It's not a lore breaker because PCs are limited through mechanics. Mechanics are the lore breaker, not NPCs doing things PCs cannot. If it were how you say, then there should be no way for the charr to invade ascalon because PCs cannot go directly from the charr homelands to Ascalon.

The bow is to help show his transition from a ranger to a paragon.

Nah, you're mixing apples and oranges. Not being able to transit across a part of the map isn't anything like the same as breaking the profession "rules". PCs and NPCs are simply "heroic" peasants one and all. We are the elite of Joe Public and NPCs, even arch-nemesis shouldn't break the rules. If there's some sort of exceptional (Godlike interference perhaps) that could convert a character from one profession to another (perhaps Kormir's involvement) then fair enough, but it should be open - even if ludicrously hard to achieve - for regular player characters.

The problem with Kieran's conversion is that it's completely half-arsed. It hasn't been thought out by the "designers", hasn't been adequately explained and he's still wandering about with a bow as his only weapon. OK, so how IS he going to learn spear skills? (we'll skip the part about him not even having a bow!).

GW continues to call itself an MMORPG - but blatently messing with the lore and breaking "rules" fly in the face of the RPG.

Give him super-hero stats - fine
Give him a one-shot-kill - ok
Let him go split-class - no probs.

Magically convert him into a different profession without so much as a genie in a lamp - wtf!

Konig Des Todes · Dec 27, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Keiran, as I pointed out above, was NOT the first to change professions. It isn't a rule that was ever established in lore that people cannot change their profession.

It. Was. Never. A. Rule.

Not in lore, at least.

Your crying about nothing.

You want a half-arsed profession change? See the list I linked to above, I'll quote for you:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Keiran's not the only NPC with a change in primary professions:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magi_Malaquire
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alari_Doubleblade
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Carlotta
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Afflicted#Notes (some afflicted bosses are in fact afflicted forms of Shing Jea student/teachers and almost all of them have had a change in the primary profession).

Also, the inability to change primary, as I said above, is a mechanic. Not lore. Even Alessia hinted at being able to become a warrior:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_N...ament#Dialogue

Although a joke on her AI, this sounds like she was deciding whether to become a warrior - don heavier armor and so forth - or continue to be a monk. Based on WiK dialogue, she stayed a monk. But it implies that it is possible.

One shot kills? That's done more for balance of the missions. So is the lack of such for us. It isn't lore. A single arrow - with no special movement or abilities behind it - can one shot kill a person. In fact, I bet in the "rpg" element, there are no "attack skills."

You're taking mechanics and lore and complaining about things that are mechanics screwing up the lore.

draxynnic · Dec 29, 2010, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Now that I've wandered back in, I'll point out that I disagree there:

Magi Malaquire's "profession change" was probably simply Warrior being used as ANet's universal placeholder for NPCs whose profession they really don't care about at the time. A "Magi" isn't really going to be a Warrior. Neither are the golemancers Zinn and Blimm. But at those times, their professions didn't really matter, so they were given Healing Signet as a placeholder heal.

Alari and Carlotta both first appeared when they're "real" primary professions didn't exist. Ranger is a good placeholder for assassin as a light combatant who relies on agility and stealth.

Regarding the afflicted... I must admit to wondering if that was simply an error that wasn't worth correcting, but I think it's reasonable to say that becoming an Afflicted is a much more significant change than simply having a change of heart about leadership. To counter the argument, every profession-changing NPC says "You are a [profession], and nothing can change that."

To be honest, I'd agree that Keiran being made a Paragon hero feels basically like they've just fitted a slot in a matrix. It also explains that question Stumme posed of "Is Keiran awesome or is it just that we're seeing things through his eyes..." It's the latter. When there are witnesses around, he's at the same standard as all the other heroes...

Steps_Descending · Dec 29, 2010, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

It also explains that question Stumme posed of "Is Keiran awesome or is it just that we're seeing things through his eyes..." It's the latter. When there are witnesses around, he's at the same standard as all the other heroes...

It feels like a cheap excuse to be able to fit mecanics in story, but considering it's a solo mission, it makes sense and it's unique enough for GW.
Can I ask what part he's changing exactly? His self image as a ranger (vs P/R), his sniper skills or his solo potential?

Konig Des Todes · Dec 29, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

@Steps: I'd say it was his self-image as a ranger and his solo potential - removing them, that is.